+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 3 4 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 32

Thread: New Robot model ?

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by grems8544 View Post
    One of the powerful aspects of the IWM/GDX robot is that their correlations to the markets are relatively low, compared to other alternatives. This permits one robot to be long while the other is in cash, or short, as the markets dictate.

    I think the consideration of any other robot has to start with correlation to the other existing robots. To me, and I know this is against the grain here, creation of a SPY robot will duplicate much of the in/out market behavior of the IWM robot, so I fail to see the point (completely ignoring that Pascal has already done this through May 2011 and the results underperformed the IWM robot).

    To throw my 2 cents into the pool, I submit the following chart:

    Attachment 8596

    This is a correlation matrix of the various indexes with IWM, GDX, and various ETFs from the Oil & Gas group. This is a correlation back over the past 2 years of data.

    Here are the symbols, in case you are not familiar with Yahoo!:

    ^DJI: DJ 30 Industrials
    ^GSPC: S&P500
    ^RUT: Russell 2000
    ^IXIC: Nasdaq 100

    Two equities are said to be correlated when they have a value of "1.0". There is no correlation when they have a value of "0.0", and there is inverse correlation when they have a value of "-1.0".

    As you can see, over the long haul, IWM and GDX have a correlation value of 0.4 to each other, e.g., they are loosely correlated. This gives them the ability to have different behaviors, which is why we are long GDX at the present time but looking for a short entry into IWM.

    You can read across the IWM row and see that IWM is tightly correlated with the general markets (0.87, 0.92, 1.00, 0.94). Contrasting, GDX is not (0.39, 0.41, 0.41, 0.35).

    I think that this is a desireable behavior of a robot, and I think that if time and effort are going to be spent, we need to find another ETF that is not well correlated with IWM or GDX.

    Enter XOP.

    XOP is the Oil and Gas Exploration & Production ETF, and it has solid volume. It's correlation with IWM is 0.72 and with GDX only 0.56, so again, it's a loosely-correlated candidate. Further, it's correlation with the major markets is loosely correlated (0.67, 0.73, 0.73, 0.67).

    Another attractive aspect of XOP is that it has two levered ETFs, DIG and DUG. The correlations with XOP are very, very close.

    I've included OIL, another ETN (Note, not Fund), only as a reference. ETNs have tax consequences, so while it can provide further orthogonality, the practical nature of OIL in terms of taxes and subsequent K1's may preclude it from consideration.

    Correlations change with time -- I can model this using a weighted methodology developed by the RiskMetrics Group. If we consider approximately on the last 100 days of data (or so), here's the correlation matrix:

    Attachment 8597

    Note how there is a tighter correlation across the board with the various components, as well as with the major indices.

    Taking this to the extreme, the correlation across the last 30 days of data (or so) produces the following:

    Attachment 8598

    The implications are subtle -- sometimes market conditions rotate so that previously orthogonal ETFs are out of sync, as desired, and sometimes the markets rotate so that they become more in sync. We could find ourselves completely out of the market with a IWM, GDX, XOP robot triad, or we could find ourselves in the markets.

    Again, my 3 cents (inflation)...

    Regards,

    pgd
    Great analysis indeed. Thank you very much.
    I was tempted to go with XLE, because of ERX/ERY (3X). However, XOP is maybe potentially less manipulated. I wonder if somebody has the list of tickers for XOP. I only found the list of stock names, which is attached.

    XOP_Comp.xls


    Pascal

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Desenzano del Garda (Brescia), Italy
    Posts
    86
    Quote Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
    I wonder if somebody has the list of tickers for XOP. I only found the list of stock names, which is attached.


    Pascal
    On the "spiders" website, they have a CSV file containing the tickers, you may download it at this address:

    https://www.spdrs.com/site-content/c...nyx_code2=1757

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by roberto.giusto View Post
    On the "spiders" website, they have a CSV file containing the tickers, you may download it at this address:

    https://www.spdrs.com/site-content/c...nyx_code2=1757
    Thanks!

    Just did!

    Pascal

  4. New Robot

    Pascal ,

    Thanks for the Robot comparison. The Robots' results seem proportionate to their underlyings. The amonaly is the 2011 performance on the SPY, the only period where either Robot didn't outperform. Was that what led you to to decide not to release it (yet anyway)?

    Bob

  5. #25
    XOP seems a good choice. To be a little more detailed Natural Gas seems to have a good volatile future. Would UNG be a possibility as well ?

    Here is some insite why :-

    =====================
    Breaking story.

    Maran Gas, a Greek shipping entity, are about to place a huge order for 8 LNG tankers.

    http://www.hellenicshippingnews.com/...option=com_con...

    Eight is huge for a couple of reasons
    1. That's about a $1.6B order
    2. It involves two shipyards
    3. Through late May 2011, 16 vessels had been ordered YTD.

    FWIW, Maran Gas had switched 3 VLCC orders into LNG tanker orders earlier this year, and its existing
    operational fleet consists of 5 LNG tankers and 2 LPG tankers

    http://boards.fool.com/breaking-stor...-29339135.aspx
    ===================================

    Trev

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by manucastle View Post
    XOP seems a good choice. To be a little more detailed Natural Gas seems to have a good volatile future. Would UNG be a possibility as well ?

    Here is some insite why :-

    =====================
    Breaking story.

    Maran Gas, a Greek shipping entity, are about to place a huge order for 8 LNG tankers.

    http://www.hellenicshippingnews.com/...option=com_con...

    Eight is huge for a couple of reasons
    1. That's about a $1.6B order
    2. It involves two shipyards
    3. Through late May 2011, 16 vessels had been ordered YTD.

    FWIW, Maran Gas had switched 3 VLCC orders into LNG tanker orders earlier this year, and its existing
    operational fleet consists of 5 LNG tankers and 2 LPG tankers

    http://boards.fool.com/breaking-stor...-29339135.aspx
    ===================================

    Trev
    Both UNG and USO have underperformed the underlynig commodities, because of the contral roll-over.

    Name:  USO.gif
Views: 3094
Size:  25.2 KBName:  oil.gif
Views: 3151
Size:  17.6 KBName:  UNG.gif
Views: 3142
Size:  24.4 KBName:  natgas.gif
Views: 3181
Size:  17.7 KB

    NG went from $10 to $5, but UNG went from $100 to $12
    Oil went from $120 to $100 while USO went from $100 to $40.

    UNG and USO are good only for short trades.

    Regarding the LNG tanker issues, they are probably also a consequence of cheap money.
    I would not be surprised to see overbuilding at some point.. infrastructure can hardly match the demand cycle. It often overshoots it by a very wide margin.



    Pascal

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    6
    What about OIH? This would be akin to GDX but for oil.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Vienna, Virginia
    Posts
    603
    Quote Originally Posted by andrew125 View Post
    What about OIH? This would be akin to GDX but for oil.
    HOLDRs are incredibly efficient in cost -- OIH is $8/100 shares. This is the good news.

    The bad news, for some, is that HOLDRS require a minimum 100-share lot to open, which could preclude their usage for folks wishing to employ strict money management techniques with a large-holding portfolio, e.g., no one positions occupies greater than 2-5% of a portfolio. @ $152/share, this implies a minimum position of $15.2K to open. This could be outside the size of what folks would want to commit in forward testing their own behavior of the robot. On the other hand, some folks only invest 2-7 positions per $100K, so this could fit well.

    I think something with an odd-lot capability would be received better by subscribers, but of course, this is subjective.

    Regards,

    pgd

  9. #29
    Late to the thread, chiming in - and joining the choir: Low correlation to the current robots (I was glad to see GDX and not SPY as the second one), enough volume so as not to see high spread, and underlying stock tickers making it fit to the methodology.
    Best if we have several robots where the equity curves are not highly correlated, and the best way to get there before the robots are completed is to look at low-correlated underlying ETFs.
    Concurring with earlier posts, probably XOP (Oil & Gas) should be next. And if we could see more in the future ( :-) ) - XLV (Healthcare), XLP (Staples), and XHB (Builders) might be contenders.

    I place lower importance on the availability of x2 and x3 ETFs for the specific index or industry group. With the way margin requirements for leveraged ETFs are calculated now seems to me there is no advantage to trading those vs. creating leverage by margin (except in the context of non marginable retirement account). Also I am not sure how the peculiarities created by the daily reset of leveraged ETFs will affect robot results.

    Pascal, Billy - thanks for your great work, and keeping us all in the loop.

  10. #30

    Xle/xop

    XOP/XLE are correlated by 0.94

    XLE and IWM are correlated by 0.66 XLE/GDX: 0.55
    XOP/IWM: 0.66 XOP/GDX: 0.50

    Since I have all the underlying for XLE, while I still would have to include many small stocks for XOP, since ERX/ERY are 100% correlated to XLE, while DIG/DUG are only 0.94 correlated to XOP,
    and finally, since the volume is 4 times higher on XLE...

    I believe that I will try to work out the XLE robot.

    Pascal

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts